On Aug 23, 1:21 pm, Beau Blue wrote:
> George Dance wrote:
> >On Aug 22, 4:17 pm, Beau Blue wrote:
> >> Will Dockery wrote:
> >> >In rec.arts.poems on Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:47:25 -0700, jack austin
wrote:
>
>> >> ferlinghetti
>
> >> >> beatnik's father
>
> >> >No, that would be Kerouac.
>
> >> Huncke was the original beatnik. The father of the beats.
> >> In New York.
Huncke was not a "father" of anything, though he did use the word
"beat" which was used by other junkie-bum types before him.
Without the success of Howl and On The Road there would have been no /
beatnik/ at all, but rather an obscure and maybe completely forgotten
group of 1950s writers.
> >> >> for ginsburgh
>
> >> >"Ginsberg".
>
> >Ferlinghetti credits Ginsberg:
> ><q> When it comes to the Beat era, Ferlinghetti is among those who
> >have
> >the last word. Of Ginsberg, he says: ``There wouldn't have been any
> >Beat generation recognized as such if it hadn't been for Allen. He
> >created it out of whole cloth, really. Without Allen, it would've
> >been
> >separate great writers in the landscape, it wouldn't have been known
> >as the Beat generation.'' </q>
>
> Of course Ferlinghetti credits Ginsberg and a reading in San
> Francisco for the birth of the /beats/.
Not what Ferlinghetti (or I) says.
He's saying that without Ginsberg and Howl's worldwide success, the
"Beat generation" would have remained an obscure notion shared by a
few obscure writers:
``There wouldn't have been any Beat generation recognized as such if
it hadn't been for Allen. He created it out of whole cloth, really.
Without Allen, it would've been separate great writers in the
landscape, it wouldn't have been known as the Beat generation.''
And Jack Austin refers to /Beatnik/, which came after the big hits
Howl and On The Road, a term Kerouac hated.
> He owns a bookstore in San
> Francisco! Makes a ton of money selling books by writers of that era.
> One of the reasons there's sooooo many /beats/ nowadays. Ever notice
> how the pool of beats keeps expanding? That wouldn't be Ferlinghetti's
> fault now would it?
>
> Where was Ginsberg living, and with whom, when the word /beat/ was
> first used?
>From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Huncke
"...Huncke used the word "Beat" to describe someone living roughly
with no money and few prospects. Huncke was considered to have coined
the phrase that eventually came to describe an entire generation. Jack
Kerouac later insisted that "Beat" was derived from beatification, to
be supremely happy."
> Who first used it?
Jack Austin weote /beatnik/, not /beat/, so it seems the first person
to use /that word/ was Herb Caen in 1958... after the success of Howl.
See below.
> Why?
In print it was John C Holmes in his novel Go, much to Kerouac's on-
again off-again frustration, who first used the word /beat/:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Clellon_Holmes
"...The origin of the term "beat" being applied to a generation was
conceived by Jack Kerouac who told Holmes "You know, this is really a
beat generation." The term beat later became part of common parlance
when Clellon Holmes published an article in The New York Times
Magazine entitled "This is the Beat Generation" on November 16, 1952
(pg.10). In the article Holmes attributes the term to Jack Kerouac.
Kerouac in turn had gotten the idea from Herbert Huncke. Holmes came
to the conclusion that the values and ambitions of the Beat Generation
were symbolic of something bigger, which was the inspiration for
Go..."
I (or Ferlinghetti) never wrote that the Beat Generation was /born/,
as you so often misquote me, but that Howl's success /kicked/ the
concept up to a mass popularity, spawing countless "beatniks" and
media depictions and satires of "Beat" characters.
This not about who first spoke the word "beat" or when the /concept/
of a "beat generation" was first thought of, but when the concept
became known on such a mass level that it could actually be considered
a generation.
All that, and the flood of "beatniks" came after the success of Howl:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatnik
"...The word "beatnik" was coined by Herb Caen in an article in the
San Francisco Chronicle on April 2, 1958. [2] Caen coined the term by
adding the Russian suffix -nik after Sputnik I to the Beat Generation.
Caen's column with the word came six months after the launch of
Sputnik. It may have been Caen's intent to ****tray the members of the
Beat Generation as un-American. Objecting to Caen's twist on the term,
Allen Ginsberg wrote to the New York Times to deplore "the foul word
beatnik," commenting, "If beatniks and not illuminated Beat poets
overrun this country, they will have been created not by Kerouac but
by industries of mass communication which continue to brainwash man."
> But, let's not let the truth get
> in the way, OK? Presto, 'Howl' and San Francisco .. where the
> bookstore is .. gave birth to the /beats/.
You keep repeating your confused version of what I wrote, which was /
not/ that the success of Howl and the later On The Road gave birth to
the beat phenomenon, but that that it /kicked off/ the beat phenomenon
on a mass, worldwide level, where before that it was an obscure notion
shared by a handfull of people.
I can repost my writing /again/ from the archives, since that's shut
you up the last couple of times you've misquoted me.
But let's just keep this fascinating and on-topic discussion going for
a few years, you keep repeating your confused misquote/lie about what
I wrote, and I'll keep correcting you, shall we?
> >A `Howl' That Still Echoes
> >Paul Iorio, San Francisco Chronicle, October 28, 2000
>
>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/200...
--
"Wobble" (recorded August 14 2007)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVIF2-qWIUc
words- Will Dockery
music & guitar: Henry Conley
trumpet: Riley Yielding
bass: Sam Phillips
drums: Brad Strickland
|
